Forbidden Lore and Insekt Classification

yeah cause the wording is misleading. from this sentence alone " you follow the rules of the domain your taking traits from" sounds like you follow the rules for it. how ever I do understand that with respect to the underlying examples of forbidden lore.

what was meant was "you follow the rule for how traits are obtained, within the domain that the trait comes from" and only those rules.

1-2 The bonus traits within the Classification Branch would grant bonus traits within an order, but not beyond that. Orders are their own branch. For example the Trait Arachnid

Arachnid 8pts: Insekt Order-Arachnid, bonus Trait 1- would grant a single trait from the Arachnid order which would be chosen with this trait. It still would not open up the Arachnid Branch though for other traits.

The best way to get access to more branches are to have higher level classes take forbidden lore "like a Spider Queen Archlord" to take a trait out of the order and unlock it for the entirety of the faction. Taking Forbidden Lore as a Faction Trait is a little more limiting. Im certain there is a way to do it.

Personally I think the best way to make this faction is to take Forbidden Lore as a class trait for one class to open up the Classification. You could for example make your Paragon take Forbidden Lore as a class trait to take Arachnea. Then your Archlords could take Forbidden Lore to further open up the Orders you wish.

3. No it would not. Forbidden Lore is just granting access to the Branch and Traits within it. In that regard just because he is getting traits from Forbidden Lore in the Insekts would not grant him Rapid Evolution.

"Taking Another Classification: When selecting Class Traits you may choose to take a Trait from a different Classification, but doing so replaces all all Traits from your original Classification and replaces your starting characteristics. "

This is for creating a Insekt Faction and is under the titled section- Steps to Creating Your Faction. He is creating a Fey Domain faction which has access to some branches within the Insekts.

I will come back to this question this afternoon with book in hand. (working on a mobile device this morning)

@natfka some other stuff TheGrip and I were talking about with relation to his taking of a Classification with forbidden lore.

1. would this also open up order traits? if you took say archnea classification trait and got the bonus 1st tier trait would you later be able to take the 2nd tier order traits?

2. if not, how would you go about taking the order traits with forbidden lore? since it isnt under anything covered in the Forbidden lore description of things that could be taken?. can it just not be taken.

3. after taking the classification trait within the faction (which dosnt change the characteristics), if you wanted to give a class the insekt hybrid trait and give them a different classification say Insekt, would that change the traits?.

im confused about this because in the description of forbidden lore it stats

" Having Forbidden Lore unlocks the Traits within the Branch as well as powers to be taken by other classes in your faction although they must adhere to the rules of taking Traits as if they were of that Domain, i.e. taking 1st Tier traits to unlock 2nd Tier, 2nd Tier Traits for Classes Level 3+ only."

I know that at the bottom of the forbidden lore it just talks about traits, but this part of the insekt domain is contradictory to me, since you need to follow rules of that domain when useing forbidden lore.

in insects, it stats.

"Taking Another Classification: When selecting Class Traits you may choose to take a Trait from a different Classification, but doing so replaces all all Traits from your original Classification and replaces your starting characteristics.

STARTING CHARACTERISTICS The your starting Characteristic are determined by the Classification you choose. "

Thanks @natfka! I apologize, my second question was a bit of a mess; brain melted from proof reading.

I'm trying to make a Fey Faction with a heavy influence of Spiders, and getting there via the Unknown Powers Trait at Faction Creation, and taking an Arachnea Classification Trait (Arachnid 8pts, in this case, though I'm sure the specific doesn't matter). This limits my future options for flexibility on outside Traits, but I'm okay with that, for narrative purposes. So, am I to take it this means that a when my Fey Faction takes an Arachnea Classification Trait via Forbidden Lore at Faction Creation, the corresponding 0pt Classification and Characteristic stat block comes with the Trait, over writing the Fey Characteristic stat block? I'm trying to make a Fey Faction with a heavy influence of Spiders, and getting there via the Unknown Powers Trait.

In regards to the third point, that clears it up! @Ravenousminiatures.com was saying the same thing, it does seem like the common sense answer, but I find most times, Tabletop games are not the bastion of common sense rulings one would hope; I saw another way to interpret it and had to be sure I wasn't taking illegal options, or illegally hamstringing myself.

I'll throw a WIP in case thats of any help. Some math may not yet be completed and Traits need to be pruned to bring it into reasonability, price wise.

The Grip. No problem. Jumping in here. Listing page numbers just to be clear.

1. When you select your classification you get the starting characteristics listed. This does not cost any points and grants you access to the Classification Traits. (page 90 under 1. Select your Faction's Classification)

2. You can only have a single classification. If you take a Classification trait from outside your selected classification in a different one it does two things.

-Changes your starting characteristics to the new classification

-Removes existing Classification traits from the old classification. (page 90 Under Taking another Classification)

For example: If your faction is all Arachnea. You decide you want to create a group of Vespidae for your faction and when creating a class select a Insecta Classification Trait as for your class.

This removes the Arachnea Classification and any existing Arachnea Classification Traits. This Class is now an Insecta Classification with Insecta Classification characteristics unlocked to be taken for future traits.

3. For 1st and 2nd Level Classes- Forbidden Lore being a 2nd Tier Trait would not grant the 1st and 2nd tier classes the trait selected through forbidden lore as it is gained from the trait they do not get access to.

However.......

Forbidden Lore unlocks future selected traits from within the forbidden lore's selected branch for the entire faction following the rules listed under the ability. (page 163 under forbidden lore). So you could select the trait as a future selection if you wish.

Please go ahead and keep asking if you have questions. There is a lot of options in this game for you to select, and some very remote paths of creation Im certain people have not seen quite yet.

Ooff, this game is dense! Okay, I've been reading the forum and the manual a whole lot, so thanks to @Jack Rocchio for his input and @Ravenousminiatures.com for his, both on and off-forum. But maybe I'm just as dense (in a bad way) as this game is (in a good way). I think my previous post was a little too wordy and I may have slipped in proper game terminology, so I'm gonna try to make it more concise.

These are various rules as I understant them and points of interest in the regards to the 3 questions to follow:

-Making Fey Domain, Path of Darkness Faction.

-1st and 2nd Level Fey Classes may only have 1st Tier Traits and Powers

-All Fey Traits that provide the Forbidden Lore Ability are 2nd Tier

-Taking a Classification Trait with the Forbidden Lore Ability Would not directly nor immediately open Order Traits as options to the Faction.

-0pt Classifications and Classification Traits are separate things. -The rules under "Taking Another Classification" are moot for this Faction, as it is not taking another Classification.

-Forbidden Lore is an Ability allowing you to purchase a Trait outside of any pre-requisites (that do not specifically preclude Forbidden Lore).

-The Trait that grants the Ability Forbidden Lore is a separate Trait from the Trait Chosen.

With all the above in mind,I think the important questions here follow.

1. Are 0pt Classifications and Classification Traits separate things?

2. Does taking a Faction taking a Classification Trait outside of the Insekt Domain grant, or force one to take, the 0pt Classification itself?

3. If Forbidden Lore comes from a Fey Faction Trait, are 1st/2nd Level Classes automatically denied the Trait that was made a legal choice via Forbidden Lore?

Or, put another way,

If Forbidden Lore comes from a 2nd Tier Trait on the Faction (not Class) and a 1st Tier Trait is chosen from another Domain, would a bog standard 1st Level Fey Class lose the Trait granted by Forbidden Lore?

Help me Obi-Wan-K@natfka, you're my only hope!😆 Unless the forum has moderators? Not to short sell any that might be out there, but your help would be greatly appreciated as well! 😃

since the classification you choose within Insekta changes your base stats then taking a classification with forbidden lore would change your base stats. (from what Natfka said in the other tread)

Forbidden lore effects the entire faction so if you take it as a class trait, then later you can take a trait as a faction using progression points from that branch.

if you take it in your faction youll be able to use the traits for the entire faction you just wont be able to take forbidden lore again.

when reading the forbidden lore trait and what it effects it mentions useing it on classifications and how in insekts you need 1st tier traits to open 2nd tier, which leads me to believe that takeing a trait from the classification that grants a bonus trait from an order would open up the 2nd tier order traits. ( this i am not so clear on and really needs a comment from natfka). however Forbidden lore is meant to open up your faction to really customize it and just by reading the trait there would be no way to gain Order traits since now where in th discription does it mention orders.

https://www.genesysgames.com/forum/creating-factions/forbidden-knowledge-clarification

This one was a bit of a head-scratcher, but I believe that you would be restricted to only the Classification Traits, with access to the Arachnid and Scorpionoid Branches only being possible with the relevant Bonus Traits.

I do not believe that selecting a Classification for your Forbidden Lore would cause a base stats change, as that result is specifically called out as a result of picking Traits from a Classification you did not start with. As Fey do not have Classifications, you're in the clear.

As for granting access to Traits for other Classes, the Level 3 or higher Class that's taking Forbidden Lore is all that's needed. Once that is done, the chosen Branch of Life effectively becomes an entire 'Class Trait Only' Branch for your faction. You then follow both the normal restrictions for your Domain, plus those listed under Forbidden Lore. In this case, your Level 1 and 2 Fey Classes could choose any Tier 1 Traits from the Branch you unlocked, and are only prevented from selecting Tier 2 Traits due to their natural restriction. If you were, say, a Biest faction, you would only have to select a Tier 1 Trait in order to gain access to the Tier 2 options, as that is the only restriction between both your own Domain and Forbidden Lore.

tl;dr

1. You pick Forbidden Lore

2. You pick a 2nd Tier Scorpionoid Trait

3. All Scorpionoid Traits become Class Traits for your faction

   1. A Class has to pick a 1st Tier Trait before 2nd Tier is allowed

   2. Lv. 1&2 Fey can't pick 2nd Tier traits because of their Domain

or

1. You pick Forbidden Lore

2. You pick an Arachnea Trait

3. All Arachnea Traits become Class Traits for your faction

   1. You can only get 1st Tier Arachnid and Scorpionoid Traits as Bonus Traits

Bonus question:

The Trait from the Madness Sphere that grants Forbidden Lore is a 2nd Tier Power. In this scenario, it is a Faction Trait.

I use this ability to take a 1st Tier Trait from another Domain.

Standard 1st and 2nd Level Fey Classes don't have access to 2nd Tier Traits.

Does this mean 1st and 2nd Level Classes are denied the 1st Tier Trait taken with Forbidden Lore, as the ability is granted by a 2nd Tier Power?